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Stock Fuel Rails, why they don’t keep up

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Thread Starter #41
Soooo, today had to get back on the horse minus my little buddy, it’s not the same not having a tail and never being alone but you are alone and now I am alone really alone feeling:(

Started the cat up today in prep for hopefully tomorrow a WOT 1-2-3-4 data pull. Did a start up log, log shows idle fuel trims -2% more negative at idle both banks. Here’s some side by side stock to open’d up comparison photos. 773643A0-3359-4AB1-8685-9D11A4D1C5D5.jpeg FCBD7981-9FFE-491A-AFF7-5C13414428DB.jpeg 6E69A54E-7233-43C4-B684-685370C7C86A.jpeg E8D454CB-0E0A-4CA6-80C4-0CE3EC484779.jpeg FB8EE359-BF36-4210-AE26-AB00BD729042.jpeg 350AC05D-C37E-4370-B989-B6E869A3353E.jpeg CC9D0625-9C9E-4CDD-A8C7-D7A13EDB5E0A.jpeg 760F724B-9C35-4D3A-BE3A-D497CD0461EF.jpeg
B57E6416-B291-4239-A3A1-F76C8B0BEC69.jpeg
 


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#42
Good luck testing. Looking forward to some interesting data.
 


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#43
Same here, can not wait to see the results. Let's see how the testing goes.

Btw, thank you for sharing your story about your dog. Hope you get another little furry friend ASAP. Loving someone or little thing is what makes life soooo dang good.
 


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#44
Dogs are the greatest creatures on earth imo. Sorry to hear about yours

Looking forward to seeing the results.
 


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Thread Starter #45
THANKS guys, today a little better but I can’t get her last 2 hours out of my mind, it plays over and over and over in my mind like a bad dream :(
We have another dog, her not blood sister but they grew up together from 6 weeks old each. She’s the total opposite of what Kaci was, she’s not the affectionate one, never was, she was the bully of the two LOL. She’ll have to change now lol. It’s still 24F here atm, supposed to get to 36 today snd get wet and some snow snd maybe ice tomorrow so today’s got to be the day. My cat is spotless though, you could eat off the wheel well liners even, I HATE taking it out even in the dust of what’s left but “I gots ta know” LOL Hopefully have something to post by this evening. I’m paranoid, I couldn’t stand another disaster of any sort at the moment. Christmas already sucked. I’m off 2 weeks because my daughter and grand daughters were supposed to come in for this 2 weeks. Thursday before Christmas week my neighbor exposed me to COVID and my daughter had to cancel the visit, that left me heartbroken in it self, so we had to quarantine through Christmas week, test came back negative Christmas Eve morning and then the dog passing on Christmas Eve evening memories of Christmas 2020 are already bad enough, if something happened with my cat I wouldn’t know what to do with myself, never before have I felt this paranoid planning a 1/4 run in Mexico. This don’t help either, new buildings have been going up in the empty fields around my test track area in Mexico, looks like my playground is going to be shut down as well :(
A38060C7-27F7-42F6-BD72-19220B8F24C6.jpeg
 


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Thread Starter #46
The DA is going to be there today for apples to apples comparison to a -1000 DA log taken 11/29.
This is projected DA hour by hour from 9am forward today, so even mid afternoon will work.
🤞
89F052F5-F91F-4956-B218-0DF36EA28E18.png
 


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#47
Unless you just like 1/4 mile pulls all you really need is a pull in 3rd or 4th to know on the rails.

I tested mine on E73 yesterday in 48 deg air to 6500 rpm in 3rd. Saw 2100 aircharge so air was awesome. Injector DC 86٪.
 


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Thread Starter #48
Unless you just like 1/4 mile pulls all you really need is a pull in 3rd or 4th to know on the rails.
I will get this at least for sure, I just may have to travel a bit further from home then planned to get it. But maybe a long drive will do me some good. I want to do a few short 3-4 second hits in third first and review log before taking it close to the rev limiter in 4th. Suns coming out, soon as the roads warm up some from it out I go.
 


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#49
I call it Hemi therapy.
 


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Thread Starter #50
Yea, HEMI therapy, you hit the nail on the head there!! I MUCH need some!!
Any one zoom in on the picture of the new building being built in my playground I posted? It’s been going up for 3-4 months now, I’ve been wondering what this super complex was going to be, huge garage complex on it, air handling and purification system to rival a hospital, I drive by it daily going to work and watched the build, well they put the letters on the building last week, :( parties over for this playground LOL
maybe it’s for the best though, it does make it way to convienient and easy to beat on my car lol
 


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#51
Eagerly await your results and greatly appreciate your effort..
 


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Thread Starter #52
Ok, here it is, 2 log videos attached, one of today with the modded rails and one to compare too taken late November with same exact ambient temperature and almost the same DA as today. Unfortunately nothing miraculous from the mod but it did enlighten me to 650$ of a Fore Fuel Rail upgrade would have been a waste of money as there is no doubt in my mind these modified rails will flow as well as Fore ones that are fed in the usual configuration they are offered in using a stock fuel pressure sending unit. After studying these logs I see WOT fuel trims are more equal bank to bank. The fuel demand peak is around 420 lb per hour which is about 68 GPH. According to graphs on TI site a 285 pump should deliver 100 GPH at 80 psi, so dual ones should deliver 200 GPH. So either I’m calculating this incorrectly or there’s a big restriction somewhere between the pump outlets and the fuel pressure sensor. Before I upgrade to triple pumps or 295’s I’m going to be looking for that restriction first.

 


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Thread Starter #53
But managed a decent 1/4 run, the 315 555R2’s didn’t due to bad on 30F pavement. This is the 1/4 Run in the log video. HEMI therapy was much needed and I enjoyed it and miraculously my car stayed clean :)
I mapped out a clean path earlier in my 4Runner and it paid off.
Now on to blower rebuild, leak down test, clutch replacement, Fore filter installation and fuel line restriction investigation and maybe some motor upgrades before spring depending on leak down test results. Got to stay busy.
3AA2A510-D343-438E-8E4A-A8359C5927B3.jpeg E042EB87-D636-4190-852B-09822DBE56F3.jpeg
 


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#54
Great data! Here's a couple observations.

I'd remove a degree or two of timing at the upper RPM areas and 1.80g (1800mg) and up aircharge. That knock appears real to me and you definitely don't want that.

Fuel system is definitely maxed out in current config on full E80+ fuel. Your inj pw is getting up there at 17ms and I did see the bypass start to open to bleed some boost. Mixing down to E70 will still give you probably 95-98% of your timing map, and take pressure off the fuel system if you wanna save some bucks on upgraded injectors.

Interesting that your changes did seem to balance out the trims bank1 to bank2. I've noticed on my car that bank1 seems to always have a bit more trim than bank2, usually 2% or so. The fact that the fuel feed comes in to bank2 and crosses over to bank1 likely explains this.

It's been a long time since I studied fluid dynamics, but I seem to remember a single restriction in a given system meant the entire system was restricted to the same degree. Keep in mind there is a venturi and valve in the passenger side saddle that limits fuel pressure to 90(ish) psi on standard Hellcat, and that fuel flows from passenger saddle to driver as part of the pump process. This is one of the reasons it's a bit difficult to siphon the tank as well. If the pumps aren't running this venturi doesn't function so you end up siphoning only the driver saddle unless you key cycle the car a bunch of times, or leave it running, or jumper the pump relay.

On the RE this passenger side venturi/valve setup goes on up to like 110psi if memory serves. However, with more pressure you will start to lose some volume. Finding that balance is where the money is. More isn't necessarily "more" more if you know what I mean.

I've been seeing the highest aircharge I've ever seen lately in my testing at 2000+ mg. I'm seeing around E75 calc'd E and my inj DC is tickling 85% at 6500 RPM. Desired fuel pressure is 94 and actual is 89, so not awful but could likely use some bigger injectors to line it all out. I'll rarely be in 2000+ aircharge type air at WOT, that would be a holy grail day for me at the track, so I'll have to weigh what worth an upgrade, keep my eyes open for some second hand ID1300s or something, and decide then what's what. I definitely couldn't run Ignite E90 in this weather though.

So something happened to a buddy of mine last week. 2018 M6 Hellcat with twin drop in setup using 295 pumps, ID1300 injectors, 2.85 pulley. Claims he filled up with 93 so plenty of fuel, out making a rip in 40 degree air and got a wild hair and took it to 180MPH. Lets off slowing down and a couple seconds later CEL and runs a bit rough. Drove home 80 (!) miles. Pulls plugs and cyl2 are burned up. Bore scope shows broken piston edge as well. No signs of detonation, something just got real hot. Cylinder 2 is passenger front.

Not sure what happened, maybe when he let off after such a hard pull and car went in to DFCO it super heated that cylinder and burned it up.
 


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Thread Starter #55
Great data! Here's a couple observations.

I'd remove a degree or two of timing at the upper RPM areas and 1.80g (1800mg) and up aircharge. That knock appears real to me and you definitely don't want that.

Fuel system is definitely maxed out in current config on full E80+ fuel. Your inj pw is getting up there at 17ms and I did see the bypass start to open to bleed some boost. Mixing down to E70 will still give you probably 95-98% of your timing map, and take pressure off the fuel system if you wanna save some bucks on upgraded injectors.

Interesting that your changes did seem to balance out the trims bank1 to bank2. I've noticed on my car that bank1 seems to always have a bit more trim than bank2, usually 2% or so. The fact that the fuel feed comes in to bank2 and crosses over to bank1 likely explains this.

It's been a long time since I studied fluid dynamics, but I seem to remember a single restriction in a given system meant the entire system was restricted to the same degree. Keep in mind there is a venturi and valve in the passenger side saddle that limits fuel pressure to 90(ish) psi on standard Hellcat, and that fuel flows from passenger saddle to driver as part of the pump process. This is one of the reasons it's a bit difficult to siphon the tank as well. If the pumps aren't running this venturi doesn't function so you end up siphoning only the driver saddle unless you key cycle the car a bunch of times, or leave it running, or jumper the pump relay.

On the RE this passenger side venturi/valve setup goes on up to like 110psi if memory serves. However, with more pressure you will start to lose some volume. Finding that balance is where the money is. More isn't necessarily "more" more if you know what I mean.

I've been seeing the highest aircharge I've ever seen lately in my testing at 2000+ mg. I'm seeing around E75 calc'd E and my inj DC is tickling 85% at 6500 RPM. Desired fuel pressure is 94 and actual is 89, so not awful but could likely use some bigger injectors to line it all out. I'll rarely be in 2000+ aircharge type air at WOT, that would be a holy grail day for me at the track, so I'll have to weigh what worth an upgrade, keep my eyes open for some second hand ID1300s or something, and decide then what's what. I definitely couldn't run Ignite E90 in this weather though.

So something happened to a buddy of mine last week. 2018 M6 Hellcat with twin drop in setup using 295 pumps, ID1300 injectors, 2.85 pulley. Claims he filled up with 93 so plenty of fuel, out making a rip in 40 degree air and got a wild hair and took it to 180MPH. Lets off slowing down and a couple seconds later CEL and runs a bit rough. Drove home 80 (!) miles. Pulls plugs and cyl2 are burned up. Bore scope shows broken piston edge as well. No signs of detonation, something just got real hot. Cylinder 2 is passenger front.

Not sure what happened, maybe when he let off after such a hard pull and car went in to DFCO it super heated that cylinder and burned it up.
I will definitely try taking a degree or so of timing out in the top end and see what she does, THANKS for the suggestions. BTW, 2% bank to bank difference is about what I used to see as well, like bank 1 had less pressure and didn’t have to trim as much fuel out for the same injector pulse width across the banks. That morning I added 10 gallons of tested E85 from jugs, car calculated down from 85 % to 83.5, close. It’s been hanging right at 85% the last 2 fills on this same fuel, winder why it recalculated it lower different this time? I’m probably just going to run it as is this next season, I’ll look for more fuel restrictions while adding the Fore undercar E85 filter set up from TAPPED. @Speedy! Did you install yours yet? A forum buddy of mine did his which was a HHP kit and said is was a real PITA??
SUCKS to hear of your buddy’s woes, cylinder 2 is the cylinder I had partially melted plugs in too once, luckily my engine survived. What is DFCO? When I let off at high rpm after a hard pull I usually toss it in neutral if I can coast out some, I wonder if just letting off and letting engine braking slow one down had anything to do with it and how it could?? I assume he’s having to do a tear down and repair now or try for a warranty claim??
 


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#56
I never installed the filter. Don't plan to ar this point.

DFCO = deceleration fuel cut off a fuel saving feature

I'm not sure what my buddy will end up doing. Last we spoke he was talking about going back bone stock.
 


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Thread Starter #57
I never installed the filter. Don't plan to ar this point.

DFCO = deceleration fuel cut off a fuel saving feature

I'm not sure what my buddy will end up doing. Last we spoke he was talking about going back bone stock.
I was thinking the same thing about the filter but I’ll be running pump E85 most of the time and it’s highly recommended by Rick to use it when doing such. What would be your reason(s) for not installing it?

Is there a way in HPT to disable DFCO do you know? I’d hate to suffer the same fate as I get wild hairs often LOL.
 


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#58
FWIW...seems like my curtsauced charger likes to take a couple seconds post-hit to actually trip DFCO. When it happens...the trims all go to 0 anyways with absolutely zero activity so it's super obvious...it also tends to spike rich immediately off throttle.

All I'm gonna say is all of my plugs looked good when I swapped them to brisk chasing an odd issue we had during remote tuning...and I've been 160's just for the sake of science a few times. Been 185 one time. In mexico of course. *crosses fingers* been good so far.
 


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#59
You can technically turn off DFCO but I don't recommend it. I'm not saying that's for sure what happened, just something we talked about. For all I know he had a 1/4 tank of fuel LOL
 


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Thread Starter #60
FWIW...seems like my curtsauced charger likes to take a couple seconds post-hit to actually trip DFCO. When it happens...the trims all go to 0 anyways with absolutely zero activity so it's super obvious...it also tends to spike rich immediately off throttle.

All I'm gonna say is all of my plugs looked good when I swapped them to brisk chasing an odd issue we had during remote tuning...and I've been 160's just for the sake of science a few times. Been 185 one time. In mexico of course. *crosses fingers* been good so far.
I’ve seen this in my logs, and can feel it happen as well when it kicks in, yep, a few seconds after getting off the throttle, I usually push the clutch in about right there, now I know what it is!! THANKS GUYS!!
 




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